SBURBDEV Forum

[Legendary]

'K so I'm gonna create a lot of threads so we can at least start discussing how various game elements function. Let's start with gates. These are especially problematic, however, I think we can be sure of one constant of every session: There are seven gates above every house. One might think it would vary per number of players, but Vriska's tricking Tavros names the Seventh Gate as the troll gate to the Denizen, and she has no reason to lie about that or pick number seven as the final gate. So, I will first discuss how each gate progression should be approached per number of players, assuming the smallest number of players is TWO and the greatest is SIXTEEN.

So, here on out is suggestions. Let's get debating!

To start, I will note that I am going to refer to each world in an incipisphere from the perspective of a given player as follows: Their world is World 1, their server's world is World 2, server's server is World 3, etc, until the link is closed. This means that from John's perspective LOWAS is 1 and LOHAC is 3, and from Dave's perspective it's the other way around.

Now, first it would be best to discuss progression in a four-player system. Though there are maps of the Incipisphere plotting gate progression through the kid's session, I suspect that both these and Davesprite's explanations are WRONG. They claim it works like this: Random place in World 1 -> House in 2 -> Random place in 2 -> House in 3 -> Random place in 3 -> House in 4 -> Random place in 4. Under this set-up, John ends up fighting the LOFAF denizen, Rose the LOWAS, etc. This seems suspect, since John's seventh gate is supposed to lead to Typheus' palace. Furthermore, Dave's 5th gate leads to LOHAC. Even with the handwave "LOFAF was not included in the progression", this doesn't work. He would either end up on LOWAS (assuming he passed through LOFAF twice) or LOLAR (assuming he skipped LOFAF). In fact, the only gate Dave has would take him to a random place in LOHAC, again with or without LOFAF, would be Gate 1.

So, based on what we've seen from John's progression and Davesprite's, here is what the canon gate set-up is for certain:

Random place in World 1 -> House in 2 -> ? -> ? -> Random place in World 1 -> ? -> Denizen's Palace in World 1

Therefore, I suggest that a set-up for the gate system with four players works like this:
Random place in World 1 -> House in 2 -> Random place in World 1 -> House in 3 -> Random place in World 1 -> House in 4 -> Denizen's Palace in World 1
It is a little unbalanced, but if we encourage players to go through gates that are not their own (by keeping Grist gain low around the house, forcing them through the 1st gate to properly explore the others worlds and get stuff to build up the houses, perhaps) then this works out rather nicely.

We could also disregard canon and have EVERY gate lead to a random location on another world, forcing the player to find the house, hope the next gate is built to, and go through it. But maybe this isn't popular

Now, for progression in other systems. These are relatively simple, I think:

2 Players:
1-> 2-> 1-> 2-> 1-> 2-> 1

3 Players:
1-> 2-> 3-> 1-> 2-> 3-> 1

4 Players: (covered)
5 Players:
1-> 2-> 3-> 1-> 4-> 5-> 1

6 Players:
1-> 2-> 3-> 4-> 5-> 6-> 1

And unfortunately, after this seven gates is no longer sufficient to cycle through every world AND take the player back to their Denizen. Therefore, bifurcation is the best approach, as it already has canonical precedent. Bifurcation should always split the team into Derse dreamers and Prospit dreamers, ala the troll session. A 7 player session, therefore, has a track of 3 and a track of 4, one of which belongs to Derse and one to Prospit. Eight is 4 & 4, Nine 4 & 5, etc. This too breaks down at 12, so for 13+, we need to bifurcate each set of dreamers, creating FOUR loops. 13 will have one loop of four planets and three loops of three, 14 two each, 15 one of three and three of four, and 16 will have four loops for four planets.

If we keep this approach, I propose that there be hidden gates on each planet as well, to connect the loops. There can simply be one for each planet, or perhaps one for each loop. This lets exploratory players have some fun instead of being limited to at best, six of the possible planets in the session. (Well, okay, there are obviously other methods of getting around, but the gate system is basically fast travel).

So, I hope I didn't blow too many people's brains out or confuse them. What do people think with this approach? Objections? Alternate scheme-y plots? Post them here, let's get the debate going!

[AgentPaper]

How do we know that gate 5 leads to a place in your origin world?

[Legendary]

Doomed Dave arrived on LOHAC by going through Gate 5 in [S] Dave: Accelerate. I will admit it's possible and has been proposed by others that because Jade didn't enter LOFAF was not included in level progression, but my set-up sidesteps the problem. I will note that I am also trying to keep every planet not belonging to the particular player evenly represented through the seven gates. It would be entirely valid to just go 1-> 2-> 3-> 4-> 1-> 2-> 1, but that's boring.

[AgentPaper]

Doomed Dave arrived on LOHAC by going through Gate 5 in [S] Dave: Accelerate. I will admit it's possible and has been proposed by others that because Jade didn't enter LOFAF was not included in level progression, but my set-up sidesteps the problem. I will note that I am also trying to keep every planet not belonging to the particular player evenly represented through the seven gates. It would be entirely valid to just go 1-> 2-> 3-> 4-> 1-> 2-> 1, but that's boring.

I thought what happened was that Dave was entering John's 5th gate, or the 5th gate from Dave's perspective at any rate, which would fit perfectly with the ordering that future dave shared.

[Legendary]

Nope, it does not line up with Dave's explanation.

TG: the progression of gates is like this whole round robin thing
TG: cycling through each planet
TG: gate 2 on your planet leads to gate 2 on roses
TG: then you build up to gate 3 above her house which leads somewhere else on her planet
TG: you look for gate 4 somewhere there
TG: which leads to gate 4 above my house"

So. Continuing the pattern, the progression would look like this: "First Gate: 1 -> Second Gate: 2 -> Third Gate: 2 -> Fourth Gate: 3 -> Fifth Gate: 3 -> Sixth Gate: 4 -> Seventh Gate: 4"

Now, if Dave went through John's Fifth Gate (I'm assuming you mean the one John is meant to go through, not the Fifth Gate above John's house), then yes. That would lead to LOHAC. But the gate pre-loader is red. It's much more likely Dave is following his path.That means he was going through his Gate. If LOFAF counted at this point (as my opening post notes, worlds might not be in the cycle until players enter), then Dave's fifth gate is LOWAS. If LOFAF doesn't count, his Fifth Gate is LOLAR.

I am explicitly noting that this explanation, though canon by Davesprite, doesn't result in the optimal Denizen fight and doesn't fit the actions we've seen. So we're left with either keeping it and saying "Kids don't fight their Denizens" or "Kids are supposed to buck the gate cycle and do as they please."

Which I actually didn't note before. Should we do that? Make each Gate Cycle deliberately wrong, force the players to jump off the rails each session at some point to actually make any progress with themselves? This works great as a spoiler in a game you're meant to play ONCE, but Sburb will played multiple times by people.

[AgentPaper]

So wait, the color of the pre-loader is more reliable than the word of someone who's been exploring the world for some time? Perhaps the pre-loader is red because it's heading into LOHAC, or maybe it's red because it's Dave going through it, or maybe it just happens to be red because Hussie didn't really ponder the implications of the color of the preloader all that much.

[Legendary]

What? No. I don't know of any quote where Dave says he's going through John's gates, or any other evidence, so I assume that red gates mean Dave.

If there is such a quote, may I see it?

[AgentPaper]

What? No. I don't know of any quote where Dave says he's going through John's gates, or any other evidence, so I assume that red gates mean Dave.

If there is such a quote, may I see it?

I meant the part where he says how the ordering of the gates work. It wouldn't make much sense for him to say that's how it worked if he had just finished going through his own 5th gate leading into his own world, hence disproving his own theory.

What makes much more sense, is that he's just gone through John's gate, as part of exploring his route to try and gather information as Rose says here:

TT: I thought we planned to progress as far as we could before you went back.
TT: To gather information, and avoid repeating mistakes.

Also, I think it's safe to assume that the 7th gate, or the last gate whatever number it ends up being, will break the standard order and always lead to the denizen of your own world. So theoretically John would go through gate 6 to get to Jade's house, then build up to the last gate which would, instead of bringing him to a random point in the LOFAF, instead send him to the denizen's area in LOWAS.

[Legendary]

I see. That does break symmetry, of course, but all right. That's an option, and if other people prefer it I'm down with that.

So my question is this then. The set-up for 2 and 3 players would still work, but in a five player set-up, this ends up happening:

1 -> 2 -> 2 -> 3 -> 3 -> 4 -> 1

World 5 isn't visited at all on the standard order. Additional players brings more breakdowns unless we go with my birfurcation plan, which lets 7, 8, and 13+ configurations avoid this problem. Is this something we want to have end up being a thing, or should we redesign the gate system somewhat when more players come in to ensure that every player has a chance to at least visit the people in their half of a bifurcation? It's obviously impossibe, as I noted, for a seven gate system to let seven players visit every world in a standard order.

[demosthenes2k8]

First of all, <3 16 player max.

I think if we scratch the Gate 5=>World 1 connection, like you did in the OP, and assume it's due to time/death shenanigans, then the OP options would work. The only other idea I can think of is to, again, partially ignore canon and make the number of gates dependent upon the number of players, although I'm reluctant to really push this idea, and it would STILL ignore that G5>W1 connection.